MAINE - Life in the Slow Lane
Bobby
That's one cal I have not used, the 6.5 Swede. For a while the 7mm-08 was a hot number clear up into the North woods of Maine. I had a Kimber rifle in the round and did not see what all the fuss was about. The 7mm-08 which is nothing more than a 308 case necked down in my mind just didn't have enough fuel behind it to be of any great value.
That crap about anything a 30-06 will do a 308 will do is just that IMHO. Of course not. Load up some 220 grain bullets in the 308 and you can just about watch them crawl out of the gun barrel. Too, the normal 1:12 twist of the 308 won't stabilize a long for caliber 308 bullet. I've never been a big fan of the 308 other than its use in the mini guns on my Cobra back in Nam, and for that matter the 30-06. Though the 06 is a damn good cartridge in my opinion capable of snuffing out about anything in the lower 48 and a few critters in the upper if the rifle is in the right hands. Week end warriors that shoot a few rounds just before deer season from an 06 often get their beanies flipped around off the bench and go out in the timber flinching like whores in church without even realizing it.
Like it or not, human being aren't designed to do wonderful things when something is blowing up in their faces. Add the loud bang to the formula and the excitement of a good size critter and it can go South real quick. The guys that shoot well shoot much, year in and year out. They learn the tricks of the trade and lay the lead where it belongs.
Some like myself are recoil numb. Perhaps sadistic, perhaps less sensitive to loud noises as deafness sets in. But the end determines the middle if you will. Simply put, one can shoot a good size moose with say a 270 or 30-06 and kill it. On the other hand, one can light up a moose with a 375 H&H or 378 Weatherby, pick it up in it;s tracks, kill it, and slam it on the ground. World of difference between the 06 and the 378. For the record, a moose can, and has been killed with a 22 rifle. The question becomes, how far one wishes to chase the moose after the shot. Myself, I want em down right there, right now. That's just me. Others enjoy tracking spore to find the kill. To each his own.
In the killing formula, massive destruction of tissue, muscle, vital organs, and sometimes bone, is what makes for instant in track kills. I do not believe most men of sound judgment would argue that. Accordingly, the higher velocity rounds will wreck more meat. But a bullet from a super zapper put in the boiler room will not wreck all that much edible meat unless one is somewhat of a rib conniseur.
The battle rages on, those who live by the pounds feet formula, those who shoot cannons at game. Then the cult that won't touch one off if it travels less than say 3600 fps from the muzzle over the screens. Rather than take one side or the other I take the best of both. Big & Fast. It has worked well for me over many years. 
Koda,
I found this discussion very interesting! Take a look. Some serious big game hunters in the mix.
Bobby
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4025051/all/6_5x55_for_Moose_Really
Somewhere in my mans room is a magazine with an article about Moose hunting in Sweden. The jist of the article was a study done by the Swedeish Game Departmment, in which their officers went with hunters who shot Moose with different rifles and cartridges, and actually measured how far they went after the first shot and any follow up shots. IIRC this was done on at least 1000 Moose. They found 6.5x55's killed just as well and many times quicker than larger daimeter and more powerfull rounds. The exception was IIRC the 358 Norma (or some such round) and then it was only marginally better. It was a very interesting read, and the number of animals killed was a certainly adequate to prove or disprove a point.
I know that some of you guys saw that article, as it has been hashed out here before. Thee Moose I've seen out West, I could kill with a 22 pistol.
Bobby
What did you try to get that garbage on the screen?? Let me know and maybe I can fix it up.
See Yah
Lee
Lee
I believe he copied and pasted Luke's post on that forum and it looks like it captured some of the HTML code ???
Bobby
That is a "typical" thread when it comes to killing power of ANY cartridge/rifle combination. The beauty of the forums is anyone can say anything, feel free to make up data to substantiate a claim, and really proves nothing more than to add more dry logs to an already well blazing fire.
To make an absurd statement such as Luke did makes little or no sense at all to me. The 358 Norma is a barn burner IMO. It's a 35 Whelen on steroids. With a well constructed 250 grain bullet it will raise some serious Hell on about anything hit with it, and, for what it's worth would be a more "proper" round for the task of dispatching moose. Sectional density and ballistic coeffients are mixed in with velocity to do a stare and compare on the merits of one cartridge over another to select the best ranging, the best penetrating qualities. One must keep in mind these are mathematical models. A bullet hitting flesh, bone, and vital organs does NOT have to perform on queue or to script. While the lowly 30-30 is on record for killing about everything on the planet it does not mean it is the best case weapon for all situations.
As sportsmen, be it hunting or fishing, we have an obligation to harvest game and wildlife cleanly. Shooting over sized big game animals with sub standard calibers to prove a point is careless and irresponsible. Too, it leaves outfits such as PETA open doors to film animals flopping around and suffering to promote their cause.
And it does not end with hunting. Catch and release of fish is one thing. Those that are intended to be table fare should be quickly dispatched, not left flopping around to suffocate.
What works well for one man may not do so well for another. You have shot the 6.5 much, know the round, know where to place the bullet for the best effect. Trust me when I say, that same rifle in the hands of the wrong man can become a wicked wounder of game. The same can be said of the 378 Weatherby in the wrong hands.
Just as there is no one fly rod weight to conquer all fish from brooks to salt water, there is also no one rifle that is best suited to taking prairie dogs at 500 yards and moose at 50 yards. My thoughts are much the same as Rourke, Use enough gun to get the job done cleanly. And that will vary from one shooter to another based on their skill level with any weapon.
I am more than sure that both Ziggy and I can drop a half dozen arrows into a 3D deer target at 75 yards with our compound bows. Yet neither of us would ever consider taking a shot at a live deer at that distance. Too much can go wrong. So we set range limitations upon ourselves of 20 to 30 yards with the later being reserved for when all the stars line up just right, which is not often.
Everyone is free to use what they want, and they will. Encouraging someone to adopt what has worked well for us as individuals may not always be the most prudent advice as they may not be as experienced or as proficient with a given set of parameters as we are.
I'm one of the ones that does NOT advocate the use of 22 center fires on game. They were designed and intended to be varmint cartridges. While much game has been cleaned cleanly with the high powered 22 center fires it's not the right choice 99 out of 100 times, and possibly 100 out of 100 times.
But they will continue to use them. All I can say is when PETA gains more ground I for one am going to be mighty pissed.
Koda
I agree with you on this. What I found interesting in the discussion pertains to how moose respond to bullets regardless of the size and cartridge. Apparently this animal does not always go down easily regardless of the cartridge. That is what got me to cut and paste the discussion. Some of the guys were inexperienced and others quite experienced hunters having interesting comments to add. To my thinking it is clear that given the chance to hunt moose my goal and commitment will be to close shots well placed and be ready to send another bullet down range. I will be studying the anatomy very carefully before pulling the trigger if I use a rifle in the first place as I really enjoy bow hunting much more. I am not going to purchase a big gun for the job. I will likely shoot it poorly in a game where the bottom line is accuracy and bullet placement. Of my two game guns there is no question that my 6.5X55 is more accurate than my 30 06 with the larger bullets so I don't have an advantage using the 06 when a 200 gr shoots so poorly I may as well throw rocks. I don't doubt the 6.5X55 will be accurate with the 153gr and 160gr bullets which the rifle was originally designed to shoot. I had thought I should keep shots to 150 yards but now I think I should keep the shots 100 yards or less with 50 yards being the best choice. Certainly where as I would love to shoot a massive bull the Vermont reality is more likely to be a 500 lb cow or no moose at all.
Using .22 cal on big game larger than a deer I agree is a mistake. One of the finest hunters I have ever known hunt private land in Conn used a Hornet. At the time he knew how to work the system and had several care taker permits as well as the public shotgun and archery licenses. It was a total of 5 deer per year and he filled the tags with wonderful bucks. He showed me a seasons collection of antlered skulls with hornet holes into the brain. Like you this guy didn't mind recoil as he owned a .300 Weatherby Mag., .300 H&H Mag and a Winchester .270. Those guns he used as a young man but his Anschutz .22 Hornet applied with his uncanny stalking skill was the game that he enjoyed when not bow hunting. The bow he used was a Bear Super Kodiak Mag in 60+ lb draw wait. He shot a 240lb 11 point Pope and Young with that as well as a dynamite 12 point all shot from the ground. The 240 lb 11 point was massive with a spread between the outer tips being 22 1/4 inches with the main beam to heavy to get my hands around. That was the year after he shot a 10 point whopper 245 lbs also with antlers I could not get my hands around that was 21 ½ inches between the outer tips, not the inside of the basket as many measure. I hunted that 11 point deer the year before moving to Vermont. I showed him the area which was near at hand but it had eluded him. He saw the buck the day we were there, looked at me and said: " And you moved to F---ing Vermont!" I look back now and think to myself....."You moved to F---ing Vermont!" What was I ever thinking? Not more than 1/2 mile from where this animal was shot we, 3 of us, saw a 21 pointer cross the road before daylight and it took up the entire road! It stood there in the head lights just long enough for the count. It looked like it had an apple tree on its head for antlers, but I.......moved to Vermont!
Koda, more than every I am convinced it is all about accuracy and being willing to pass up shots that are not right . The rifle doesn't matter any big game cal will do within its effective range provided it has a bullet designed for deep penetration which the 6.5X55 has but I would not take a .25 cal or 6 mm for the job as the bullets do not have the jacket and mass I would feel comfortable with. I don't like them for deer as the bullets are destructive and not hold up to a Vermont moose.
Fun discussion Koda!
Bobby
Bobby
I am of the belief that neither of us is being talked about in the "What can go wrong" group. You and I have had the discussion before in private emails. And you know my thoughts on the subject. Personally, I do not consider the 6.5 a crack moose caliber. But then, I don't consider the 338 Wini Mag much more than marginal.
And I totally agree with you, it's all up to the guy "behind the bat". I've killed a lot of game over the past 50 years and can say I never had to chase any of it far, if at all. It's about practice, precision, shot placement. As long as the bullet can get in without blowing up on the surface, if it's in the right spot it'll work.
A moose is a big animal. A perfect shot to the lungs seldom will drop one in place unless the shoulder is broken in which case the frame work is no longer working. It's going to take a spell for that huge chest cavity to fill up. Much depends on the attitude of the animal when it takes the hit.
A deer I always said is a living bundle of nerves. They are on edge even when all the stars are lined up just right. And I believe it is because of that hair trigger attitude of deer that the faster more frangible bullets put them down the fastest.
A moose on the other hand is just about inert. They'll take a hit square from a 375 H&H and just stand there looking at you. I swear some don't have the brains God gave a Chipmunk. The last thing you'd expect one to do when shot is run right at you, but I've had em do just that, at which point the gun got emptied, all in the moose.
I have seen big moose go down faster with a broad head than with a 378 Weatherby. For one, the moose does not know the hunter is there, and two, does not hear any loud bang. Perhaps it thinks it has been bit by a tick or something and just waddles off a few yards,lays down, and checks out.
If it could get better than lacing a good moose at 7 yards with a bow I am not aware of what it could be. Just being that close is a buzz in itself.
A fun topic for sure Bobby. Wish more had something to add 
Quote by: KodaBobby
I am of the belief that neither of us is being talked about in the "What can go wrong" group. You and I have had the discussion before in private emails. And you know my thoughts on the subject. Personally, I do not consider the 6.5 a crack moose caliber. But then, I don't consider the 338 Wini Mag much more than marginal.
And I totally agree with you, it's all up to the guy "behind the bat". I've killed a lot of game over the past 50 years and can say I never had to chase any of it far, if at all. It's about practice, precision, shot placement. As long as the bullet can get in without blowing up on the surface, if it's in the right spot it'll work.
A moose is a big animal. A perfect shot to the lungs seldom will drop one in place unless the shoulder is broken in which case the frame work is no longer working. It's going to take a spell for that huge chest cavity to fill up. Much depends on the attitude of the animal when it takes the hit.
A deer I always said is a living bundle of nerves. They are on edge even when all the stars are lined up just right. And I believe it is because of that hair trigger attitude of deer that the faster more frangible bullets put them down the fastest.
A moose on the other hand is just about inert. They'll take a hit square from a 375 H&H and just stand there looking at you. I swear some don't have the brains God gave a Chipmunk. The last thing you'd expect one to do when shot is run right at you, but I've had em do just that, at which point the gun got emptied, all in the moose.
I have seen big moose go down faster with a broad head than with a 378 Weatherby. For one, the moose does not know the hunter is there, and two, does not hear any loud bang. Perhaps it thinks it has been bit by a tick or something and just waddles off a few yards,lays down, and checks out.
If it could get better than lacing a good moose at 7 yards with a bow I am not aware of what it could be. Just being that close is a buzz in itself.
A fun topic for sure Bobby. Wish more had something to add
Koda
It is a fun and actually an important topic for hunters to consider. So many of us have limited experience and getting the opinion of experienced hunters such as yourself out there I feel is important. Perhaps others will join in at some point.
To those who have been reading this thread Koda and I have had a number of discussions regarding this topic so we have been sort of bring it out here for others to ponder as many New Englanders are getting into their first moose hunt ever. I first got to talking with Koda to gain some experience from him as I have never hunted moose but wish to do so soon.
The effectiveness of the bow on moose is most interesting! It seems as if the shock form a bullet doesn't have the same outcome we see on deer or small game. I have noticed Koda, that you speak to the animals bleeding, the chest cavity filling with blood as playing an important role in bring him down. I am wondering if the bleeding caused by the arrow isn't actually greater than caused by a rifle bullet? Hmmmm. Makes one wonder and brings to mind an experience I had with a bear. A few years back I shot a female black bear 100 lb class a very old animal, which was running down a skidder road toward me. I shot her head on breaking her back at 35 yards with a 165 gr bullet from my 30 06. which exited high out the ribs on the left side of the animal. She went down on the spot and crawled off into the leafy black berry canes. I had to be a bit careful but I was able to find her in a pocket among boulders on the bank headed up the mountain on the opposite side of the black berry patch. She sat up 10 yards from me and I shot her through the lungs with one more round form the 30 06. She sat right there and bellowed a few times before finally dying. It took long enough for me to consider shooting her again! I held my shot in disbelief as she finally stopped yelling. How the hell can an animal take those kind of hits and not be dead on the spot? Well my understanding is bear are far different than most other animals being that it hibernates with a very low heart rate all winter. I don't know if there is a similarity between bear and moose but apparently they can at times absorb lead and not die as we might expect. It is rather spooky.
What are your thoughts on this Koda?
How important is a bullet exit wound when hunting moose for quick kills?
The videos I have seen on archery moose hunting seems to show the animal going down not all that far from the place it was shot. In one video the bow hunter was able to shoot the moose a second time as he stood wobbling a few yards from where he was first shot. It is a very strange animal I think.
Tight Lines!
Bobby
Bobby
This is indeed a fun thread and I hope some are gaining from the discussion even if they don't participate. Pound for pound, one of the hardest things to put on the ground is a Russian Boar. Which is why I was quite impressed with the shooting those guys in Hungary were doing. I knew the report was loud enough and found out while looking at another video of those guys that they were using 300 mags on the low end with the 375 H&H for the balance. Yah, a 375 H&H will do it just about every time on a rooter.
A bullet kills through hydrostatic shock and its results and performance can be seen in ballistic gelatin. Even a full metal jacketed bullet will greatly upset the block of gelatin which one would think not as the bullet does not expand. Of course a bullet of about any type tearing through vital organs is going to cause the demise of the game hit, the time to drop determined how destructive the hit is.
Bullet behavior has much to do with the quickness of the kills I have seen. Some hunters swear by the Nosler partitions. Myself, I've never been a fan of ANY bullet that sheds its core, be it front, back, or any part thereof. My experience with the Nosler Partition has been a predictable popping of the core in the front every single time. What's left goes on in the tissue, but it leaves a very narrow wound channel.
The bullet makers woke up one day and came out with Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and other high priced bullets that sold like wild fire. Not doubt about it, they perform right on the button. They'll double or more in diameter and just keep on going with a very high weight retention which lengthens the wound channel. The longer and more destructive the wound channel, the faster the demise of the game.
Sierra bullets are some of the most accurate I have hand loaded in a number of calibers. But I won't hunt with them because they separate core and jacket in game. I have had them come apart in the 35 Rem which is by no means fast in velocity. Surprisingly, hunters can save a lot of money when buying loaded rounds for hunting by sticking with the guys who were first to get it right, Remington with their core lokt bullets. Winchester also produces factory ammo that performs to the letter. If you recover a Remington or Winchester bullet from a game animal it will look just like the picture perfect ones you see in the hunting magazines.
Myself, I much prefer an exit wound on a game animal, and, the bigger the better. If a bullet say just misses the heart, but hits square in the lungs and one does not have an exit hole of fair size, or none at all, and the animal takes flight, what do we have to work with? Perhaps a .308 size hole going in and that's it. While the lungs are bleeding profusely, the blood can't get out of that .308 hole in any quick order. If the animal makes 75 or a hundred yards with little blood loss it may be quite difficult to find it. Any animal known to be hit must be followed up until it is determined to be expired, or a clean miss. Never let me hear of anyone not doing so.
I can't prove this, but I am highly suspect that a bullet when it hits game causes involuntary tightening of the muscles much as we flinch when hearing a loud noise. A broad head on the other hand does not seem to do this, but rather seems to relax the muscles, which aids in the blood loss.
A moose is a big animal. One quickly realizes just how big when he has to pack it out of a muskeg bog. They are not at all impossible to kill cleanly but can go a long ways if wounded.
I don't propose any magical caliber in a rifle or hand gun, nor do I say that a 70 pound bow is mandatory. A man such as yourself who is in tune to his rifle, knows how to use it, and puts the bullet in the right spot will kill way out of league for the caliber. A man with a bow that puts an arrow in a spot rather than the whole animal will also make a fast and humane kill. And that's what we should all strive for.
Back to you Sir !
Koda
Excellent points Koda. I have had the same experience of bullet core separation in every bullet I have recovered! Both from the 6.5X55 and the .270 Win. Which included Hornaday 6.5 140 gr spire point and the .277 130gr Sierra sp. One Sierra .277 130gr did have a very small amt of lead core in the pocket but it was loose and fell out as soon as I recovered the bullet. The most explosive bullets I have ever used were Spear, especially in the .25 06. The 120gr. was never recovered from deer but the hole on the opposite side I could put two fists together and pass through after the deer was skinned. The bullet hit the atrium of the heart and removed the large vessels completely, the lungs were reduced to a thick soup and all that remained intact was the trachea with every bit of lung tissue destroyed below the separation of the trachea into left and right lungs. All that remained was the cartilage. The heart sat loose in the bottom of the chest cavity. The deer fell immediately and never twitched. Sierra 117 gr bullets made a better wound channel but the Sako .25 06 with the 24 inch barrel weighed a ton and was difficult to travel with in the woods; I unloaded it. I used a custom 7X57 Mauser for a bit and it was a good clean killing rifle with the 140 gr Sierra but my dad wanted his rifle back so I returned it and picked up the .270 Win M70 featherweight and I hated it. I settled on the 6.5X55 M96 and have been pleased with it. It is the cheapest rifle I have ever owned! The 30 06 Cougar of Austria Mauser hasn't seen much game other than the bear I mentioned earlier. It was the rifle I kept out of my dad's collection as it had a history I wanted to save. Sold the rest including a new in the box Rem 700 .35 Whelan classic and two Mauser custom rifles the 7X57 with an octagon barrel into round with a raised matted rib and a 30 06 with a Sheilan barrel both with matching Yagher walnut stocks.
I am thinking of changing to Barnes copper bullets for both the 6.5X55 and the 30 06. Any thoughts on them?
If the bullet exits you will see a better blood trail right off but you also do not deliver the energy the bullet has to the animal only part of it. That is why many of the big bullets used inappropriately on small light skinned animals like deer are less effective than a light cal designed for deer. A good lung hit will quickly end up being blown out the nose and mouth in a bright frothy spray.
Speaking of hydrostatic shock form a bullet versus the cut of a broad head here is a thought for you; the bullet destroys the vessels sending blood back into the tissue and lessening the ability of the tissue to bleed where as the slice of the broad head permits massive bleeding. From what I can see in videos and read, moose don't seem to respond to shock of a bullet as do other animals but they sure as all get out don't like to bleed when the arrow finds its way through the lungs. Short of the bone crushing big cal rifles you use and handle well it almost seems that the well placed arrow is good medicine for the moose. It is getting it there that can be a problem. J
Thanks again for your insight and the discussion!
Bobby
Koda,
Have you used any 6.5 MM rifles? It isn't so much the cartridge as the bullet I like. That being said the 6.5X55 Swede pushes that bullet out there with enough velocity to make it useful without burning out barrels or destroying meat while offering very deep bullet penetration and humain kills. It does a ballancing act and compromize I find well suited to my Vermont hunting needs. You do far more diverse hunting and a lot more of it than I do so I can easily understand why you like the cartridges you do.
Bobby